NEWLEGACY.FR

- HONDA -

GOAL OF THE CHANGES

Basically, give him new tools to help on the projectile match-ups and nerf his most abusive stuff at the non-projectile match-ups. So he isn't as dominant vs brawlers, and vs zoners it will be easier to get in, but when he does it won't be almost an instant win. I will also do some small changes on some of his normals just so his normal set isn't as boring, but it won't be anything too drastic. You could say that as a 2nd goal for the Honda changes are to make him a little less simplistic, and consequently a more fun character, because in ST E.Honda is by far one of the most boring characters, both to play with and to play against.

Colors

New Legacy colors

Original colors

Old character : confirm the color choice with Start.

MISC

Neutral stance:

- Priority nerf: leg hurtbox used on neutral ground stance plus all standing normals expanded 2px upwards.

REASON: Now Fei's 2nd and 3rd Rekka hits will not whiff against it so he can combo Rekkas on Honda from a decent range.

Crouching reel:

- Priority nerf: body hurtbox used on crouching reel 1st part expanded 19px forward.

REASON: So Dictator can combo properly when E.Honda gets hit from a corner pass combo from a crouching position.

Throws:

-- Behavior nerf: throw vulnerability box expanded vertically by 5px.

REASON: This will make it fair for Hawk, landing Sakos on Honda in a safe way was TOO HARD on ST. 5px is the biggest nerf possible that allows Honda to tick DeeJay from point blank with Crouching Jab and still be out of DeeJay's throw range (unless DeeJay is cornered). Dictator will be able to counter throw Honda now if the tick is point blank or near point blank spaced which is also another big plus. Chun will be able to counter throw him as well (unfortunately), but her damage on strong throw is now fixed at least. Blanka's bite will still lose for Oicho in range but by only 2px now and will win on normal throws, which is good for balance as well. Honda's normal throws will beat Sim's in range by only 2px, but considering this is his easiest projectile match-up (or say, less hard, in ST there was also N.Sagat, but he is much better here) for Honda, and that Sim will be nerfed on general while Honda will receive anti-projectile buffs, I think this isn't a problem. N.Sim's also getting a range reduction on his noogie anyway. Also, Rog will get his variable (per match-up) throw range fixed, which means Honda will beat Boxer in throw range now, so in general I think this change will be OK in the end. With the opponent getting up from a KD, Honda can walk a few frames backward before doing the tick to make it safe like it always was, since he beats almost everyone in range.

o Behavior tweak: normal throws can't be activated with up anymore(diagonals still work).

REASON: I think this is a bug.

GROUND NORMALS

Crouching Strong:

- Priority nerf: hitbox reduced downwards by 4px (hits as low as O.Honda's Crouching Strong).

REASON: so it whiffs vs Cammy's Crouching Forward. I know this won't make that much of an impact, but Cammy deserves all kinds of buffs on this match-up.
IMPACTS: It will also whiff vs Claw's Crouching Kicks. But it's fine in this case, since the only one that could be a threat is his slide, but Honda's Headbutt can counter it efficiently already. All the other low Kicks on the game that were hit by it still will be hit so it's OK.

+

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ST		NL

Close Standing Fierce:

+ Behavior buff: activation range increased by 16px (48 -> 64).

REASON: it was too hard to use it on purpose. You could argue CAPCOM made it this was as a balance measure, and you would be right. But from my tests this is the maximum buff for it to not be any better vs Zangief and T.Hawk, since both of these characters want to jump in from the maximum range of their Light ticking moves (Jumping Short/Jab, respectively) and land outside of Honda's Oicho range. And Honda is most of the time charged for Headbutt anyway so this change makes little difference on most non-projectile match-ups, this is more of a help for when Honda is chargeless due to walking forward to get in or when Claw is wall diving. A negative of this change is that Far Fierce is now harder to use in combos, I hope the buffs I gave to that move will help to keep it usable.

Far Standing Fierce:

+ Startup buff: 2f faster (starts as fast as O.Honda's).

REASON: the only use for this move is as a combo ender. Now it's a little easier to link into it, that's all there is to this change. This change is part of what I mentioned on the goal of changes part: I'm giving E.Honda a little more combo tools so maybe there's more stuff to learn, making him more interesting.

+ Priority buff/tweak: hitbox increased 6px forward and 10px downwards, but decreased 6px upwards.

REASON: the buff on the horizontal priority is for the Close Jab -> Close Strong -> Standing Fierce combo to work against more characters, because the Close Jab x2 into Standing Fierce combo is not a thing anymore (due to the activation range buff on Close Fierce, which comes out instead), so at least the version with Strong should be more viable otherwise this move would lose the almost null significance it had in ST. The downwards priority is for it to trade with most low normals in the game (there's only a few exceptions, like Cammy's Crouching Forward). This won't be revolutionary, but it will allow Honda to score a dizzy if the opponent is too predictable with his low normal spam and he already took some hits some seconds ago. Lastly, the upwards priority nerf is for it to whiff vs Zangief's Standing Forward, T.Hawk's Crouching Strong, Blanka's Standing Fierce and Cammy's Standing Forward, since Honda shouldn't get any better on these match-ups.

o Behavior tweak/fix: properly set as a standing move.

REASON: so after the animation of these moves are over, Honda goes directly to a standing up state, as he should. Also, if he's hit during these moves, the normal standing heel animation will be displayed instead of the crouching one.

o Cosmetic fix: 1st startup and last recovery animation sprites changed to a in between standing and crouching sprite.

REASON: so the animation is more smooth. This has no impact in balance.

Crouching Fierce:

+ Damage/Dizzy buff: from 16+16 to 26+16, dizzy increased from 1~7+1~7 to 10~16+1~7.

REASON: I'm buffing all 2-hit normals that do very little damage on one of the hits. Most of these normals are trash, this is just a way to maybe make them more usable. By the way, now this is Honda's most damaging normal that can be canceled into super, and this is intentional.

+ Framedata buff: in between hits part is now 1f faster.

REASON: So it can combo properly against Chun Li. On ST it couldn't combo against her even when on point blank range.

+

16+16 ➔ 26+16	1~7+1~7 ➔ 10~16+1~7

Close Standing Short:

+ Behavior buff: activation range increased by 5px (11 -> 16).

REASON: With the opponent on the ground, it was actually impossible to get this normal out against Chun, Sim, Boxer and Dictator, even when on point blank distance.

+ Framedata buff: stays active for +5f.

REASON: so it's now +0 on block making it perfect for tick throws, since a normal will not whiff. Now this move has an use (before it was totally out-prioritized by Close Standing Jab in ST). Keep in mind that the activation range on this is still very small, so Honda will always be vulnerable to being thrown when going for this normal, this makes this change completely OK IMO.

Far Standing Short:

+ Startup buff: 6f faster.

REASON: this move was total garbage. Now it's special cancelable. This is just an attempt to maybe make it usable. The priority is shit (even with the buff below) so I doubt this will make much difference. I mean as a special cancel it can be good, but it's not like he couldn't do that already with Crouching Short.

+ Priority buff: hitbox expanded 24px downwards (hits as low as O.Honda's).

REASON: so maybe it can have some use. It will probably still be useless, but now at least it isn't straight up outclassed by Standing Forward kick. It can now beat DeeJay's slide, for instance, but I dunno if that will come into play really.

o Behavior tweak/fix: properly set as a standing move.

REASON: so after the animation of these moves are over, Honda goes directly to a standing up state, as he should. Also, if he's hit during these moves, the normal standing heel animation will be displayed instead of the crouching one.

o Cosmetic fix: 1st startup and last recovery animation sprites changed to a in between standing and crouching sprite.

REASON: so the animation is more smooth. This has no impact in balance.

Crouching Short:

o Behavior tweak/fix: properly set as a crouching move.

REASON: so after the animation of these moves are over, Honda goes directly to a crouching up state, as he should. Also, if he's hit during these moves, the normal crouching heel animation will be displayed instead of the standing one.

o Cosmetic fix: 1st startup and last recovery animation sprites changed to a in between standing and crouching sprite.

REASON: so the animation is more smooth. This has no impact in balance.

+

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ST		NL

Close Standing Forward and Command Forward:

+ Behavior buff: activation range increased by 21px (11 -> 32).

REASON: With the opponent on the ground, it was actually impossible to get these normals out against Chun, Sim, Boxer and Dictator, even when on point blank distance. I buffed it a little more than the minimal needed though, because I want to to be activable after a jump in.

and /+

11 ➔ 32

Close Standing Forward:

++ Startup buff: faster by 2f.

REASON: so now it can be special cancelable (now it's N.Honda's only medium strength normal that cancels into specials). This makes Honda's combo potential a little better since a simple 3-hit combo can do a little more damage and dizzy. It will be hard to use effectively though because ← + Forward activates the command knee, so you'll have to go to neutral to use this move, which makes it kinda hard to be special canceled into Fierce Headbutt. Practice will pay off though, since a 3-hit combo can dizzy SOME characters. Still don't know if this is too strong, but considering it's not exactly easy to pull off, I think it will be fair in the end. This change is part of what I mentioned on the goal of changes part: I'm giving E.Honda a little more combo tools so maybe there's more stuff to learn, making him more interesting.

Far Standing Forward:

+ Startup buff: 2f faster.

REASON: just to make it a little more usable. I don't think it should be cancelable so I can't buff it any more than this. It is now Super cancelable though.

+ Damage buff: from 4+24 to 14+24.

REASON: so the ability of this move for a 2 hitter isn't as shadowed by command forward as it used to be. In the rare situation in which it counters some low move (with the 1st hit) it may also do significant damage.

o Behavior tweak/fix: properly set as a standing move.

REASON: so after the animation of these moves are over, Honda goes directly to a standing up state, as he should. Also, if he's hit during these moves, the normal standing heel animation will be displayed instead of the crouching one.

o Cosmetic fix: 1st startup and last recovery animation sprites changed to a in between standing and crouching sprite.

REASON: so the animation is more smooth. This has no impact in balance.

Crouching Forward:

o Behavior tweak/fix: properly set as a crouching move.

REASON: so after the animation of these moves are over, Honda goes directly to a crouching up state, as he should. Also, if he's hit during these moves, the normal crouching heel animation will be displayed instead of the standing one.

o Cosmetic fix: 1st startup and last recovery animation sprites changed to a in between standing and crouching sprite.

REASON: so the animation is more smooth. This has no impact in balance.

+

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ST		NL

Standing Roundhouse:

+ Damage buff: from 4+30 to 18+30.

REASON: I'm buffing all 2-hit normals that do very little damage on one of the hits. Most of these normals are trash, this is just a way to maybe make them more usable.

AERIAL NORMALS

Neutral Jumping Jab:

+ Startup buff: now 3f faster.

REASON: so it comes out as fast as the Diagonal version. Just trying to make this move somewhat useful. On ST this move is trash.

- Framedata nerf: active frames reduced from 30 to 16f.

REASON: just to compensate for the better priority (see change below). Still not sure if the amount reduced is too much or too little, but the fact is that even with this nerf the move is still better than it was on ST.

+ Priority buff: hitbox is like the diagonal version.

REASON: it had very poor priority. Now it has better horizontal and upwards priority. On the other hand it doesn't hit as low as it used to do, but that's OK, Honda has other moves for that. I doubt this will be too good, but if it happens I am wrong, I'll undo/adjust this.

,

ST	8/30/∞
NL	5/16/∞

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ST		NL

Neutral Jumping Strong:

+ Behavior tweak: 1st active part duration increased from 4 to 8, loses the 2nd active part (like the Diagonal version).

REASON: now it's similar to the Diagonal version. The 1st active part on this move is what's important, the 2nd active part he's losing had very bad priority and was never really used on purpose. But you will be able to use the new Neutral Jumping Jab with the improved priority, if you need a move like that, anyway.

,

ST	7/4/12/∞
NL	7/8/∞

Diagonal Jumping Strong:

o Priority fix: 1st startup frame uses proper hurtboxes.

REASON: it looks like a small bug.

/,

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ST		NL

Neutral Jumping Fierce:

++ Behavior buff: can now be steered farther (133% of the distance that he could steer in ST).

REASON: Worked well in HDR. Helps on projectile match-ups.

,

Neutral Jumping Short:

+ Priority buff: active part uses the leg hurtbox from the startup part.

REASON: so the priority isn't as hideous and then maybe this move can have an use. This will probably still be unused, because of moving Fierce (which is even better now) but maybe this may find its role on neutral jumps in which Honda may not want to move at all.

,

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ST		NL

Diagonal Jumping Short:

+ Priority tweak: Can hit sweeps like in HDR, but has worse priority so it can be countered easily with anything else.

REASON: This is to help Honda on the projectile match-ups, but with proper precautions (hurtbox nerf).

/,

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ST		NL

Neutral Jumping Forward/Roundhouse:

o Priority fix: proper hurtboxes throught the entire move, like the diagonal kicks.

REASON: if you compare the hurtboxes used on the jumping kicks, the ones on neutral kicks looks like literal mistakes. The leg hurtbox (which matter the most) is the same so this change has little impact. This is just me being a perfectionist.

,/

COMMAND NORMALS

Forward Double Knee:

o Behavior tweak: can't be activated with upwards anymore(diagonals still work).

REASON: I think that's a bug.

o Cosmetic fix: forward attack sound on hit instead of rh.

REASON: Just bug fixing.

+ Startup buff: 4f faster.

REASON: This move was too useless, even though it had some qualities (nice damage/dizzy, very good frame advantage), but the exaggerated startup really made it unusable. Now this is as fast as Close Standing Forward was. Note that it can now combo from a Close Standing Jab, which can lead to some very devastating combos. The link is hard to do though.

/+

H ➔ M

Command Sweep:

o Behavior tweak: can't be activated with upwards anymore(diagonals still work).

REASON: I think that's a bug.

o Priority nerf: body hurtbox during the active frames expanded 17px forward.

REASON: There's 2 reasons for this: When going for trade when the opponent throws a projectile, now the trade will happen sooner, so Honda will be left at less frame disadvantage so he can make more of the knockdown he just got. And if E.Honda mis spaced this then the unavoidable projectile will also hit Honda sooner which is also better for Honda. The 2nd (less important) reason is that now Zangief's Standing Forward (as well as Dictator's) works better vs it. It's true that this makes the move worse anti air, but anti airing isn't really a major problem Honda has.

o Technical tweak: hitbox data moved to the old Diagonal Jump Strong 2nd part that was removed on ST's N.Honda.

REASON: This change gives NO CHANGE to gameplay. I just need free space on a closer address for the HHS priority change. This is just a trick to get around a technical limitation (game uses a single signed byte for hitbox addressing).

/+

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ST		NL

SUPER / SPECIAL MOVES

All Specials/Super (minus HHS):

o Behavior tweak: Input window is no longer random and is fixed at the minimum value.

REASON: The input window on all special moves is now fixed to the minimum value of 7f instead of being random at 7~14f. Having random input timers makes no sense.

HHS:

- Priority nerf: Fierce version gets HDR priority and Strong version gets nerfed to be in between Fierce(HDR) and Jab(unchanged) version. Also, the arm hurtbox on the 1st active part is expanded 2px upwards on all versions (Jab version included).

REASON: toning down a little his "physical strengths", since his "getting in" game was buffed considerably. Now both Strong and Fierce versions are easier to beat, but Strong won't be too easy to beat like it was in HDR. This is actually an important change to balance mainly the Zangief match-up, but is also important on the Cammy and Fei match-ups and to a lesser extent, Dictator, Blanka and T.Hawk. The change on the 1st part is for Zangief's knockdown Standing Fierce to still able to trade with it (since Zangief's move had to be nerfed so it couldn't hit Dictator's standing kicks). Outside of the Zangief match-up, this change should be 99% meaningless due to the nature of the move (i.e. the active part is always changing - trades will happen frequently anyway).

Headbutt:

+ Priority buff: Strong version now has the same priority as super during the "flying" part.

REASON: To maybe give a reason for the Strong version to be used. It still loses to Dictator's (Jab) Crushers so it's OK. This also makes Honda mirrors slightly more interesting.

o Priority tweak: Flying part now has only 1 hurtbox that has the total dimension of the 2 hurtboxes that it had.

REASON: This makes no difference balance wise, I'm doing it simply because I need a free hurtbox slot and there doesn't seem to be any left.

...

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ST		NL

Butt Drop:

- Behavior nerf: all versions are now air throwable during the 2nd animation frame of the airborne startup.

REASON: For the new Cammy mix-up setups (with Hooligan Throws) to work vs all Honda's Reversals. Read the Cammy's match-up section to better understand this. I am aware that this has the bad impact of allowing Guile to air throw Honda during this move, but let's be realistic: no serious Guile will even try to do this on a serious match, not to say actually pull it off...

+ Startup buff: Short version airborne invulnerable startup part is 1f longer.

REASON: Can now evade all projectiles on wakeup (minus High Tigers of course). It also received a rework so now the first airborne animation part has a duration of only 2f(so it can become air throwable sooner, see the change above), so Cammy can grab him with Hooligan. This change is important in making the N.Ryu match-up more even as well.

o Behavior/startup tweak: Forward version airborne invulnerable startup part reworked so Honda still has the same amount of invulnerable frames but becomes air throwable sooner (see the 2nd change above).

REASON: So Cammy can grab him during startup with Hooligan.

o Framedata tweak: Rh version 2nd hit "startup" is now 3f slower.

REASON: just so it's easier for Zangief to beat it with a Lariat. In ST, Zangief could easily beat Short and Forward Butt Drops during the period in between hitting parts by doing a Lariat on reaction (i.e. when Honda is at the apex of the move and is "flipping" in the air), but on the Roundhouse version, a Lariat can't reach Honda during that moment, so the only way for Zangief to beat it on reaction was with a last moment crouching Lariat, which was fairly hard to do in a consistent manner (4f window). Now, with this change, Zangief can now beat every Butt Drop strength with a similar timing, since now the Rh version will descend a little bit before attacking, allowing Lariat's 1st active part to beat it. But, of course, this has an impact on all match-ups: everyone now have a few more frames to react with a close standing anti air normal, if they have one that can reach that high (e.g. Zangief's Close Standing Jab, Hawk's Close Standing Strong, Fei's Close Standing Fierce, Dhalsim Close Standing Strong etc), but otherwise this should be an indirect buff for Honda since now the frame advantage is better: in ST, if the opponent defaults to stand blocking it, this would leave Honda at +3 vs most characters (was +2 vs Hawk and Sagat, since they're taller), but now it's always +5. Regardless of it being considered a buff or a nerf, the positive impact it has on the Zangief match-up (one of the worst match-ups in ST) is big enough for this change to be justified.

...

Oicho:

o Behavior tweak: 1st input's timer now stays at the maximum value while the 1st input is being hold.

REASON: I am doing this to all non charge special moves. This fixes a problem that affected even the best players on the world regarding walk in DPs: depending on the timing you go for downward (2nd required input for a DP), a walk-in DP would always fail. Lemme explain: on the 1st frame that you input towards (1st required input for a DP), the input COUNTER will be updated and the input TIMER will receive a value that will be decremented on each frame (this is the input timer, this was semi-random on unmodified ST, but is now a fixed value on my hack), meaning you have up to 6 frames to input downwards (2nd required input for a DP). If you input downwards before that timer reaches 0, the counter will be updated again, the timer will also receive a new value again and will then wait for the 3rd input direction required (down-forward). But there's a problem: if you spent all these 6 frames walking forward and then input downward on the 7th frame, the input window will not be increased because at that moment the DP input counter would be back to 0 and is now expecting the 1st input direction again. If you do it on 8th frame it will work though. And that's only considering a frame perfect scenario, a human player will spend more than 1 frame to go from forward to down so there are more than enough chances of missing. So that means that walk in DPs will fail around 10%~20% of the time, not even the Grand Masters can avoid this fact.
With my change, this problem is solved: it's now possible to be 100% consistent with walk-in DPs. I also applied this same change to all non charge special moves as well, since there isn't really a reason to not do it. Normal anti-air (stationary) DPs are not any easier though.

-- Bug fix/behavior nerf: fix for the store bug.

REASON: it made E.Honda basically impossible to throw for the characters with smaller throw ranges. This doesn't affect his ticking game since the negative edge property will be kept.

- Dizzy nerf: removed the stun(dizzy) on the 2nd hit.

REASON: the Ochio did double the amount of dizzy that all the other grabs in the game do. This meant that after 2 Oichos in the corner Honda would always get the opponent dizzy. Now, Honda has to gamble with a 3rd tick (which then should kill the opponent most of the time). I think this is justified by the fact that his get in tools are better now, so it's fair for his corner setup to be weakened a little.

Super:

-- Bug fix/behavior nerf: fix for the store bug.

REASON: with the super always knocking down on hit it would be too good against Ken for example.

+ Behavior tweak: leniency time for the super is long like Boxer's super.

REASON: So he at least can walk some steps before activating the super, so at least his ability to walk forward before activating the super is still in somewhat, even though it's on a very limited form. Also, I see no reason for Boxer to have this but not Honda, specially now that he can't store it anymore.

+ Bug fix/behavior buff: fix the "Honda passing through the opponent without hitting bug" (that happened when the 2nd part connected on the 1st possible frame).

REASON: it was an obvious mistake by the CAPCOM coder that was very easy to fix.

- Behavior nerf: same movement speed as Strong Headbutt (slower by 10%).

REASON: I agree with this HDR change, to be able to counter fireballs from full screen ON REACTION was simply too good (now that it juggles). It still can be done against certain characters though.

+ Behavior buff: 1st hit can negate projectiles, like the 2nd part.

REASON: So now it can negate projectiles that are very close to Honda (meaty projectiles included). His super is garbage overall so this is a must. Won't be a game changer for the most part though. By the way, not that it was unfair before, but Sim's Yoga Flame corner traps are totally countered by this now.

+ Behavior buff: last startup part is now an active part, has the same hitbox dimensions as Jab Headbutt's 1st active part. Previous startup animation slowed down so the move doesn't get any better as an anti safe jump move.

REASON: the change I made previously that gave the 1st active part the ability to also negate projectiles (like the airborne part) was not enough, because it was possible for the opponent to throw a very early meaty projectile (so that it would hit Honda around his back in case he wakes up blocking) that the 1st active part couldn't reach, and then when Honda goes to the airborne part of the move he would take the projectile hit and get knocked down. This new hitbox has more backwards reach so it can now always negate a projectile with such timing. This of course will also have other smaller impacts, but nothing too severe. It's not like Honda's Super was super OP so any positive impact will be negligible. At best, it will now be able to beat badly spaced crossups now. As for the startup adjustment, it had to be slowed down by 1f now that the last startup part turned into an active part, otherwise the move would get an indirect startup framedata buff of 1f. So I am compensating it by slowing the startup down by that same amount, just so this doesn't get any better against safe jump attempts.

+ Behavior buff: juggle knockdown on the 1st flying part, like it does on the 2nd one (for the last hit).

REASON: always safe if it hits from far away (its still unsafe as in ST when blocked though).

+ Damage buff: from 20*4 to 12+34+34+34 (you can only get one of the last 2 hits to connect though, so in reality it's 12+34+34 from up close or 34+34 from far away).

REASON: Because of the new juggle properties, it would basically NEVER combo for 4 hits anymore. Maybe in combo videos you may see some situations in which it can get all the 3 hits with the 30+ damage to connect but that's very unrealistic on a normal match, so don't be deceived by the damage values. Anyway, if done close enough for the 1st hit can connect against a grounded opponent, the first 3 hits will connect (which will do around 45% of damage). As an anti air it will most commonly only get the first 2 hits (12+34), but if it's not deep enough it will do only the first hit for small damage (12). With proper spacing on the corner you can get 3 hits though. If out of the corner just anti air with the Jab Headbutt instead. The way this super was designed makes it very hard to adjust it for all situations: If I make the 1st hit's damage higher then it will do too much damage in case it does 3 hits, and if I then reduce the damage on the other 2 hits, then using the super as a counter for fireballs from far away it wouldn't do enough damage. Something has to give, I opted for anti-air since Honda already has Jab Headbutt for that.

- Priority nerf: 1st flying part hitbox (2nd hit) hitbox reduced horizontally by 1px.

REASON: I know 1px is almost nothing, but with this 1px change it will always lose to Jab Psycho Crusher now (before, it would rarely trade).

...

20x4 ➔ 12+34+34+34

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ST		NL

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ST		NL

HONDA'S BAD MATCHUPS THAT NEEDED FIXING (and how I did it):

Projectile chars :

New Short Butt Slam which can pass through all projectiles on wakeup. The super now works properly. New Diagonal Jumping Short to beat sweeps. Neutral Jumping Fierce can be steered further like in HDR. I believe these changes addresses Honda's weaknesses on these match-ups.